From psychology to educational technology: the inspiring journey of Cécile Mazon

“Elles font le numérique” (Women in Digital) is a series that highlights the careers and achievements of female scientists whose research in digital sciences is shaping our future. For this ninth installment, we spoke with Cécile Mazon, a lecturer and researcher with the Flowers AI & CogSci project team at the Inria Center at the University of Bordeaux. Find out about her career, her research projects, and her vision of the place of women in research.

Can you tell us about your background?

After completing my science baccalaureate, I wanted to study psychology because I was very interested in human behaviour. So I enrolled at the University of Bordeaux to study for a bachelor's degree in psychology, followed by a master's degree in cognitive psychology. After four years, I gave up on the idea of becoming a psychologist because I was more interested in the experimental aspects of cognitive psychology and neuroscience, whereas the clinical aspects appealed to me less.

After some hesitation and thanks to the support of the university's information and guidance service (Suio), I decided to enrol in a Master's degree in Cognitive Science and Ergonomics.

I loved the design and evaluation aspect of disability technology and its applied and scientific nature. That's when I heard about Inria and did my first internship at Flowers on a project involving cobotics and collaboration, followed by a second internship at Phoenix, which focused more on disability issues with the Collège+ project, which offers digital tools to help students with autism spectrum disorders learn independently. At the end of this second internship, Hélène Sauzéon offered me the opportunity to continue my work in a PhD programme. The aim of this thesis was to support and promote mainstream schooling for secondary school pupils with autism spectrum disorders and/or cognitive disabilities. We also published a paper on this subject in the journal Computers in Human Behaviors.

After my thesis, I obtained a position as an assistant lecturer in cognitive science at the University of Bordeaux. I then passed the competitive examination for senior lecturer and joined the Flowers project team in December 2020.

Was joining the world of research always a given during your career path?

When I started university, I didn't envisage myself going into research at all. I thought that studying psychology would lead to a career as a clinician working with patients. I didn't really know what the job of a lecturer-researcher involved. It took me a while to realise that teachers also did research and that it was something I wanted to do. In the end, I gradually realised that what I enjoyed most during my bachelor's degree was the research process in psychology, with experiments that allowed me to study mental processes and behaviour in a scientific way. 

Is research a passion of yours?

Yes, I love research and I also love teaching. Being a lecturer and researcher is an exciting job because the two activities complement each other and feed into each other. I sometimes present my own work or that of my colleagues in class when the topic lends itself to it, and conversely, I incorporate fundamental principles or students' points of view into research projects.

Can you tell us more about Flowers' research and your current position?

Flowers is a project team made up of scientists specialising in computer science and the humanities and social sciences. It works on two areas: one on artificial intelligence and how to create AI models that can learn by themselves and explore their environment autonomously, and one on the mechanisms of exploration in humans, which ultimately comes down to curiosity.

There is therefore an autotelic learning aspect for AI agents, i.e. being artificially curious, and on the other hand, being curious in a human way and the impact on behaviour and learning of these curiosity mechanisms, which are in fact forms of motivation. For my part, I am working on applications in educational technologies in this second area because, during my thesis, I specialised in inclusive education and the schooling of young people with neurodevelopmental disorders (NDDs).

Following the success of Collège+ and Kidlearn, field studies have shown that our technologies can be adapted to neurodiversity and improve the inclusion of children.

At the same time, we also observed that parents of children with cognitive disabilities and the teaching community in ULIS (localised units for inclusive education) classes needed tools to support pupils in their schooling. In these classes, teachers are faced with profiles that are sometimes complex: some students have mild to moderate disorders without intellectual disabilities, while others have associated intellectual developmental disorders or multiple neurodevelopmental disorders (NDDs). Teaching staff have little training in supporting these profiles, lack tools and resources, and find it very difficult to manage on a daily basis. Parents, for their part, have to coordinate their children's education and healthcare. It was with this in mind that we decided to design Tous ensemble, an interface that is still under development.

This interface, created following a needs assessment survey and a participatory design process, resembles a fully customisable student file with a profile tab for general information, a skills tab, a GEVA-sco tab (the tool for assessing the educational needs of young people with disabilities), a meeting manager, a solutions notebook for sharing all the strategies that work with the student to support them, and a news tab, much like a communication notebook for exchanging information. This tool is intended for parents, teachers, clinicians, and associations that support children and their families.

We have been testing this interface for almost a year and are currently in contact with the inclusive education sector of the French Ministry of Education to see if it is possible to transfer the technology. We are also supported by the FIRAH foundation in this endeavour.

Was joining a research centre such as Inria a logical next step for you?

It wasn't necessarily a logical next step, but rather something I had wanted to do since completing my master's degree. I had heard about Inria and was very attracted at the time to work on technologies for humans. So I approached several teams at the Institute to do an internship in the field of digital sciences and see if my knowledge of cognitive functioning and my skills in analysing human behaviour could be relevant and useful in projects involving technology and IT. 

What impact would you like to have in the research community?

I don't know if I could revolutionise science, but I think that my expertise, combined with that of my team, could result in work that is useful for everyone. In particular, I would like the tool I am working on (Tous ensemble) to be made available to those who need it. But the processes are long and funding is lacking.

Starting from a systemic approach to disability that considers students in their social, physical and organisational environments, we want to improve collaboration and inclusive co-education in order to involve people in a broader educational community. This aspect of the project has led us to explore the concept of social curiosity as a form of motivation directed towards others and social interactions. As we continue with the project, we would like to explore the extent to which social curiosity could help people to communicate and collaborate. 

What are you most proud of in your work?

I am proud of the success of the students I teach, especially when a student finishes their thesis. It's a great achievement.

Was there anything that inspired you to pursue this career path, a motivating figure or a trigger?

At first, I was really curious to understand cognition and behaviour, then I had a huge epiphany when I got into cognitive science. I really loved the interdisciplinary aspect. 

What are your aspirations for the future?  

I would like to continue the current project by improving and extending the tool from primary school to secondary school, and even to university. I would also like to explore in greater depth the mechanisms of curiosity in neurodevelopmental disorders in order to identify levers that enable them to engage in certain types of learning where they encounter difficulties, and also to better understand their cognition. We know that individuals with TND are neurodiverse, but what is this diversity and how can we make things accessible to them without excluding other people?

On a more personal note, I would like to obtain accreditation to conduct research in order to advance my career.

You work in the world of research, a very male-dominated environment. Did you find it difficult to make a place for yourself?

When I started my bachelor's degree in psychology, 85 to 90% of the students were women and, paradoxically, three quarters of the teachers were men. It didn't really strike me at the time. Since I've been working in research, I've never questioned it because I've never felt that I was the target of sexism or gender discrimination, perhaps because I was and still am in fairly female-dominated environments. 

What is your view on the representation of women in these fields?

I find that when we talk about women and science, we focus a lot on the presence of women in disciplines such as mathematics and computer science, as if they were the only sciences. When in reality, science is a very broad field. It's true that women are under-represented in mathematics and computer science because, in my opinion, we internalise socialisation norms from a very young age, and these gender stereotypes are instilled very early on. There's no denying that young girls are implicitly influenced in their choice of career path and tend to put barriers in place that prevent them from pursuing studies in mathematics or computer science, for example.

Nevertheless, for my part, I am convinced that I made a completely free choice, even if it may seem stereotypical. I chose psychology because I had a deep curiosity about the subject, and I found it to be a scientific and rigorous approach.

Ultimately, is it really the representation of women in science that raises questions, the representation of women in quantitative disciplines, or rather the representation of women in general?

Apart from research, do you have any hobbies or passions?

I took up running and ran the Libourne half marathon. 
But my real passion is cooking. I love entertaining and preparing simple yet sophisticated dishes. I often watch cooking videos to try out new recipes.

Have you managed to strike a balance between your personal and professional life?

At first, it was difficult to find the right balance because we are in very demanding professions that require a lot of commitment. When I got my position as a senior lecturer, I started to find a balance with my husband, my home and our three pets. I think I've pretty much found it, but I'm still working on it. 

Finally, is there any advice you would like to share with the next generation, particularly schoolgirls or students who are wondering about their educational choices?

I would tell them to do what they want to do, to seize opportunities and not to set limits for themselves.